posted May-14-2007 07:12 PM            

BACKGROUND. In first marathon (4:05), I felt reasonably well-prepared but exceptionally hot weather (coupled with fatigue, I’m sure) caught up to me in the last 10K. In training for that, I was just building basic mileage, peaked at about 45 mpw, did a few tempo runs but no other speed work. I did my second marathon (4:09) with weak training, mostly due to flu.

This time, I’m starting with a stronger base and would like to step up my training a bit to improve my chances of a solid sub-4. Any thoughts? (Pace info below.)

Paces:
based on a 21:23 5K, MacMillan suggests:
Recovery 9:27-9:57
Long 8:27-9:27
Easy 8:27-8:57
Tempo 7:14-7:33
5K 6:53
10K 7:08
Marathon 7:57 (! )
800's 3:16-3:25
1000's 4:11-4:20

IP: Logged

posted May-14-2007 07:17 PM               

You state solid sub 4, but the paces that you are showing below are quite a bit faster than that...

Other than that, the workouts/mileage looks decent.

IP: Logged

posted May-14-2007 08:15 PM            

Don't let anybody talk you out of the core workouts. Those are your insurance policy against injury.

Just some ideas - Good Luck! We'll be watching!

Skip

IP: Logged

posted May-14-2007 08:24 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tramps:
Weather and health permitting, I’m trying to target a sub-4 this time.

---

Pssst...Tramps...I'm listening carefully.
PJ

IP: Logged

posted May-14-2007 08:50 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by hermosaboy:
What is your goal marathon time?

You state solid sub 4, but the paces that you are showing below are quite a bit faster than that...

Other than that, the workouts/mileage looks decent.

---

As noted, the paces are from MacMillan projections from my 5K time. (My real-life 1/2 time is 1:42, for example, Macmillan projects 1:38.) MacMillan projects 3:28 marathon, but I'm not doing the type of training that would bring me anywhere near that. I'd be happy with any sub-4; thrilled with a 3:50! I won't even fantasize about anything faster.

IP: Logged

posted May-14-2007 08:51 PM               

too much racing!

your toughest week is 52 miles, the week after your half marathon race, which is the week after a 5k race. you're going to go to the track that tuesday after your half, get through 2 of those intervals, feel like crap, and start a long, slow, downward spiral. (ok, i'm just guessing... that's what would happen to me )

you need a recovery week after that half marathon; and you won't be able to race that 20 miler so quickly after your half. i'd drop the 5k and half, and boost the mileages for those two weeks and include an 8 and a 10 mile tempo run. unless those races are very important to you, it's an important time to get some big mileage weeks for your marathon instead.

drop the interval workouts the tuesday after the 10 miler and the tuesday after the 20 miler. also, keep an interval workout the tuesday before your later 5k race (15 oct) and have either a short interval workout or a tempo run on marathon week tuesday.

final suggestion: swap some of your thur/fri/sat workouts so that you get a tempo run in on saturday, and then do a long run on sunday. it gives you a different (and useful) perspective on your long run to do it with tired legs. try it once to see if you like it; maybe easy thurs, core friday, tempo saturday, med/long sunday.

--full of it (advice),
mc

edited: oh, i see the pattern. no no no! a step-back week is not a week when you race!!! a step back week is a week which is almost like a miny taper -- you come out of that week feeling full of energy and bursting at the seams. unless you plan to sandbag all of those races, those will not be step back weeks; you'll be really tired, and you won't run well on the following week. i'm afraid i'm going to have to return this assignment and ask for you to re-write it

[This message has been edited by mcsolar99 (edited May-14-2007).]

IP: Logged

posted May-14-2007 09:01 PM            

I'm not too concerned about hill work since every run I do has hills---and most everything over 5 miles has major hills--and Richmond is not very hilly.

Hmmm...both you and MC are mentioning runs before my LR. (I noticed Higdon highlights this back-to-back running in his plans.) That's one thing I'd definitely consider trying.

quote:

---

Originally posted by SkipAZ:
Personally, I think the best thing you could do is add a mid-week mLR with some tempo fast-finish miles included. Take Thu/Fri of weeks 7 & 5 for example: instead of 8 w/ 6 @ TP followed by 10E, do 12 w/6@TP followed by 6E.

---

Hmmm...I like that. Thanks.

IP: Logged

posted May-14-2007 09:04 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by mcsolar99:
your toughest week is 52 miles, the week after your half marathon race, which is the week after a 5k race. you're going to go to the track that tuesday after your half, get through 2 of those intervals, feel like crap, and start a long, slow, downward spiral.

---

Hey, that was my plan! Oh..okay...now that you mention it, that is a mess, isn't it. And good stuff on the other ideas, too.

IP: Logged

posted May-14-2007 09:32 PM            

Given what you know, and this is considerable, why not try to create your own plan? Aim for a bit more mileage, perhaps more good quality work on the track in 800's or oneK's, but at a more modest pace, say 5K plus 20 seconds but with a shorter interval, no more than 200 meters, give yourself a minimum of two days easy or core work between quality workouts, (defined as long runs, races, track or tempo). One day off a week ought to be sufficient to rest and do core. You don't need two days off.

The obstacle as I see it is that the plan you have is a poor one, and rather than fix it, you might design your own, incorporating the great feedback you got from MC, Skip and Hermosa.

I have a strong bias about the marathon and that is that those who run it well put in the miles, and I like to see 60 a week at minimum, so if you do all this work and you peak at one week at just over 50, you are short-selling yourself.

You have enough leg speed to run a very good marathon, but you must redesign your work. I hope I don't offend you, but I would not like to see someone set a marathon goal that is well within his talent to achieve and then run to a plan like this one as it is laid out now. Spareribs

IP: Logged

posted May-15-2007 04:33 AM               

I disagree that you need 60+ miles to successfully run a marathon. I do think that mileage would make the distance easier and would possibly forestall the wall, but the most important is to get yourself to the starting line. I don't know if I could handle 60+ and I know you have been fighting injury recently.

Best of luck.

Lou

IP: Logged

posted May-15-2007 09:04 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Spareribs:
This plan will kill you.

---

See, now this is exactly the kind of thing I'm trying to avoid.

Seriously, though, I did look around at plans---Higdon, Glover, Daniels, CR, and (only via WRFB) Pfitz. It's quite amazing how all over the map they are. CR has you running the entire 26 miles in training; Daniels says no more than 2.5 hours (~17 miles for me!). Pfitz has the whole specialized meso-cyle thing going; Higdon's rotates the same hill/tempo/interval workouts through the whole plan. Daniels--while I like the info in the book--is just darn confusing (example quality day: "2 miles E pace + 4 x(5 to 6 min T pace with 1-min rests) + 10 miles or 80-min E ace (whichever is less) + 4 X (5 to 6 min T pace with 1-min rests) + 2 miles E pace" Geez!) Etc, etc, What's a noob...er, novice... to do?

I thought I'd try to build up a plan with some basic ingredients:
1. quality/easy principle
2. one non-running day on the weekend (which I need for ongoing house rennovation work).
3. strength/additional stretch work twice a week
4. LR's building up to 22 miles, with 5-7 18+ milers
5. some tempo runs
6. some interval work
7. peak mileage about 55 (similar to Glover, Higdon, and Pfitz)

Anyway, in talking with a running friend about this he says, "Hey, that sounds like my plan!" This guy is my age but has run a couple more years than me. Our times at the 1/2 or less are very similar, but he's run a couple of marathons in the 3:30s w/o injury using something very similar to this. (In effect, he consistently hits the MacMillan projections from 1-mile up to the marathon, whereas I fade off the pace as the races get longer.) The intervals seemed aggressive (though, again, based on MacMillan) and I thought I'd dial them back if needed. But other than that, it seemed to fit my available time/lifestyle and given our similarities in times, I thought this might be a good place to start. Um...but given feedback so far...maybe not.

BTW, the local "races" are perhaps a bit misleading. The 5K in week 9 is something I promised a newbie running friend I'd pace him for. It'll be around tempo pace (or slower) for me. The 20-miler in week 6 is a "training run race" which I enjoyed doing last year (@ 8:34 pace) and will treat as a training run this year. I thought the 1/2 might be a good chance to gauge my progress and help set a target race pace.

Ribs--minimum two days between quality work suggests LR plus one other quality day, is that right? (I know Glover and Daniels do this and, depending on what "GA pace" really means, so does Pfitz. Higdon's got 3 quality days, though.) Also, I don't know how to pick appropriate interval target speeds except, again, to use MacMillan's numbers.

P.S. Why do I get the feeling I missed a post from Ilene somewhere? Sorry about that.

P.S.S. Somebody needs to assemble a "guide to training plans" that compares the features of various popular plans, pointing out unique features, pros/cons of each approach, etc. I imagine every novice must have this difficulty shopping around for a plan.

IP: Logged

posted May-15-2007 10:18 AM            

First off, I would guess that you fade as the race lengths increase due to the weekly mileage you have/are putting in. You are clearly fast enough to run faster in the longer races, but you need the training miles to have the endurance. I would suggest between 60 and 70 at the training peak.

It sounds funny to me now, but when I was peaking my weekly mileage last year, I remember thinking during group long runs "Why is everyone else looking tired and slowing down? We're only running 18 miles ...". That's the endurance you need to run well the last 10K.

As to the paces to follow, use McMillan. He is uncannily right on with everything I've seen and paid attention to.

Be sure to build up the base for the first month or so without many hard runs. Add the quality later on. The long runs alone will be sufficient, especially if you add one tempo run per week, which is a good idea.

Lastly, a Pfitz inspired medium long run during the week really builds the endurance and supports the long runs on the weekends.

Good Luck and let us know what you finally end up with!

Bill

------------------
Bill's Profile

IP: Logged

posted May-15-2007 10:49 AM            

My general feeling is that if someone asks for advice, I try to shape my feedback on the premise of "here is what I think you should do in order to be the best runner you can." So I am not interested in giving half-hearted advice to a man who runs a 6:55 mile in a fiveK (did I do the math right Tramps? Also, is that fiveK a recent time? That is important you know.) Which means that if McMillan says you could run a 3:28, he is probably correct, assuming you do the right work. But you don't want to do the right work; you want to run a 3:50. My concern is that if you run the plan you have there, and I don't know whose it is, I am in total agreement with Skip and MC on the distribution of the work and the danger of that distribution.

So let's begin at the beginning. If you were to ask a group of accomplished, experienced, serious marathoners: "What is the single most important criterion for success at the marathon?" I am certain beyond doubt they would say "You got to run the miles!" All the other things you do: hills, long runs, tempo runs, runs at MP, track work, etc., are important in their place, but not one of them is as important as miles.

So having said that, let's look at two characteristics of Tramps: one is that you have decent leg speed, as we see from your fiveK, and the other is that you have had injury problems. My position is simply this. If you want to run the best you can and not get hurt, build the mileage and cut back on or redistribute the harder workouts. I aver that you are more likely to get hurt by running too much speed, than by running more easy miles. Tramps, you are correct that for you, I would build a plan that looked like this:

1. One long run a week, and on alternate weeks it's a medium long run, so that when the long run builds to say, a 20-miler, then the following week you do a two-hour run. I used to run a 20 miler or more every week in marathon training but I don't think you have to. So it's a 20-miler every other week, of course building up to that carefully.

2. One solid workout during the week, with 2-3 days of easy work between the workouts. So for example, if you run a 20-miler on Saturday, then on Tues or Wed you do a solid track workout, or a long tempo run, or a medium long run at MP, and so on, but always plenty of recovery. Need to go to the track? Okay then next week instead of tempo, do a track workout. But you don't have to do track and tempo every week.

3. Make those your two big quality workouts, and on the other days run easy. Notice that McMillan and Daniels give you suggestions on what slow and easy and tempo are. I like those speeds for you. I would stay with them. On an easy run, run sub 9 min/miles. Slow is for warm-up and cool down.

4. If you feel you need a day off, take one, but you should play this by ear. I like to schedule something to do every day, and you are right to do core work frequently. I try to do something every day so it doesn't take so long: activity ball for hamstrings, Thera-band for ITB and hips, etc.

You were very wise in my opinion to look at all the plans and see their merits and disadvantages. You are a bright man and I think you see that it is impossible for some canned program to be absolutely right for you. What does Daniels or Higdon or Pfitz know about Tramps that he can put together a plan that is perfect for you? Given what you know and what others here are trying to help you to do, I bet you can put together a terrific plan of your own, and when it is your plan, you will be even more committed to it.

I believe that men and women over 40, which is all of us here in B&B, do not run to our potential because we don't think like people over 40 and we try to do too much. As you have had injury problems, I am trying to give you guidance on running smarter, not harder and not hurting yourself with too much close-together quality running.

Canfit, I would give you the same advice, and as you recall we tried to do that before you ran your recent fine marathon. Build the miles, and build them gently. Let me remind you all that right now Lou is running about as well as anyone on this site, and it has taken him two years of constantly being in shape and a lot of hard work to get here. By definition, 16-18 week programs are only 16-18 week programs. There is no substitute for building the musculo-skeletal strength and physical endurance one mile at a time over a long, healthy period. Spareribs

IP: Logged

posted May-15-2007 11:08 AM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tramps:
7. peak mileage about 55 (similar to Glover, Higdon, and Pfitz)

---

In the interest of full disclosure, note that Pfitz also has 70 mpw plans, which others have used, e.g., beerger and perchcreek (with some mods).

I can only talk about my experiences. I'd considered the 70 mpw plan, but I'm going to hold off until I get more experience under my belt, and prove to myself that I can run that kind of distance without getting hurt.

I have no doubt that running more miles would give me more endurance, as breger and spareribs point out, but for me it adds some risk, and frankly too much time. I need more sleep, already

IP: Logged

posted May-15-2007 11:09 AM            

I don't mean to infringe on your thread, but maybe some of my comments/questions also have relevance for you as well.

1) In preparing for my marathon this past weekend, I was averaging 35-40mpw in Jan/Feb; 40-45 in Mar; 50 in Apr. While I felt good about this personally (it was a big increase for me), the advice I received was that this mileage was still very low if I wanted to do well. I think this proved to be true as I ran out of gas in the last 4-5k. I'm thinking that Bill's advice of 60-70 is probably right, although maybe just getting to and maintaining 50+ for a longer period of time would work too. My question would be is how fast do you build to peak?

2) I really think I need to do more long runs of 18-22 miles. I didn't do enough of these until April and I think that was too late. I'm assuming getting to peak earlier would help here.

3) I would like to know what 'building the base' during the first month really means? And is one month enough time to build the aerobic depth that you need? Are we talking miles and how many? I'm sure we're talking pace too, but is this Maffetone type pace?

4) I started (again too late) to build in a mid-week med-long run of 10-11 miles on the advice of people here. I really like that concept especially when it is sandwiched between a tempo run and another 'harder' workout. I ran some of the 10-11 at MP or better in the middle.

5) Another concept I build into my training about 2/3's of the way through was an extra running day on Sunday. I was running 4 days per week through Feb, but upped that to 5 days in Mar/Apr ...I noticed the difference.

6) The other big question for me is on speedwork. How do you evolve in this area. I've never done a lot of track/speed work before, relying on tempo runs as my 'speed runs'. I've haven't done a lot of 5k or 10k races, probably being too cautious of injuries more than anything. So how does one start to develop "speed" and not get injured?

BTW - I was chuckling reading your comments in this thread. They sounded like I wrote them.

Thanks to others who are offering your advice. You can probably tell many of us are in information overload. Your comments are appreciated. It would be nice to have a thread that addresses this topic on an ongoing basis. This is "wisdom" and "experience" that shouldn't be lost.
PJ

IP: Logged

posted May-15-2007 11:22 AM               

here's the schedule i followed going into hartford last year. unfortunately hartford was my (last?) bonk due to not using gels, but i felt like i was in the best shape for any of my races for that one. during june/july i ran a lot of marathon pace stuff on hills -- those were hard workouts. had some track work there too, through about august. then in the last 9 weeks i raced a half, a hilly 8 miler, and an 8k. did a lot of marathon specific tempo running, and i ran a 3-6 mile tempo run at marathon pace each saturday before my four long 20+ mile sunday runs. after reading some lydiard stuff, i realize this was a very lydiard-like training approach. i'm planning to repeat a lot of it during the next 20 weeks:
http://www.noao.edu/noao/staff/mpenn/personal/hartford.htm

although i never try to agree with ribs, his approach is also the one i use as far as building a schedule. first i lay out the total mileage, and include a set of races. i also try to include practical issues like work travel and vacations/holidays etc. then i figure out how many quality sessions i want per week within that framework; either intervals, tempo, fast finish long run, or race... trying to have 2 sessions on "easy" weeks, and 3-4 on hard weeks. after the framework is done, i work with my coach for specific workouts, and try to find some balance between (and get the timing correct for) speed and race pace specific runs. flexibility is important too though, since i will get sick sometime during a training plan, and will miss some work or maybe a long run.

IP: Logged

posted May-15-2007 11:36 AM            

I've made noises about storing collective Boomer wisdom in a wiki similar to the Newbie Wiki before... nobody bit.

Is there any interest? I could try to set up the infrastructure if folks were interested.

IP: Logged

posted May-15-2007 11:40 AM            

quote:

---

"I would like to know what 'building the base' during the first month really means? And is one month enough time to build the aerobic depth that you need?"

---

Most training plans I've seen start out with a period of time, usually between 6 and 8 weeks, where the focus is almost exclusively on building a base of miles that supports the rest of the overall training period.

But having said that, one must not tackle a training plan if their current base isn't sufficient to allow them to start it! They'll add too much too soon and likely get injured. So the appropriate base building period could be significantly longer to enable you to build up to where the training plans' base building starts at.

Aside: there is a school of thought that talks about the "wall" and it suggests that you should average enough miles per day, that when you triple it, exceeds the length of your race.

This would imply that if one averages 9 miles per day (or 63 miles per week), you will have sufficient endurance to last the full 26.2 miles before breaking (9 x 3 = 27 miles). It also implies if you average 8 miles per day (56 per week), you may struggle at 24, and 7 per day after 21 miles. Just another point of view.

Bill

------------------
Bill's Profile

IP: Logged

posted May-15-2007 12:00 PM            

First, if I were to publicly suggest Lou run more miles, the entire board would be up in arms as everyone complains he doesn't get enough sleep as it is. Well said Lou!

But this mileage thing and the "base-building" is a very important issue and I am glad to see Bill picked up on it here. It is what I was getting at with my comments on the 16-18 week plans. In reality, the very good runners take years to build a base, so you can see why you have to be careful. For all of the many people here who really want to run a good marathon, I hope you see that you have to stay after the long range goal of building that endurance slowly and carefully. It cannot be done very well in a 16-18 week program, without risk. If you see some of fredurie's posts where he runs incredible mileage as an older runner, he didn't just get up one morning and try to run 80 miles a week. Fred has been running high mileage for a long time.

As to track work, MC made a fine point when he said something about "getting the enzymes going". On the track, you don't have to run speedy work sessions of say, 12 x 400 at faster than 5K pace. There is no need for such a workout. I do all my track work at 20 seconds per mile SLOWER than fiveK pace. Tramps, you should think about doing your 800's at 3:35, for that reason. I didn't even bother with that issue in my first reply because there was so much else to address. Suppose you take a very short interval, such as 200 meters in about a minute. Then a track workout of 6 x 800 @ 3:35 and a 200 recovery, with a 2-3 mile w/u and a 2-3 mile cooldown will give you 9 miles or so of work and believe me you will know you have gone to the track. But you won't kill yourself with speed. BTW, that would be 3 miles of quality, and if you do one other workout a week with 4 miles of HMP or MP or tempo, you would have 14% quality work in a 50 mile week. And better recovery.

Canfit, in every one of the questions you ask, I can already see the wheels turning. You don't need answers to those questions as I sense you have already figured it out.

And finally, that "rule" of 3 x daily average run has worked over time and I am a firm believer in it. Thanks for adding that Bill. Spareribs

IP: Logged

posted May-15-2007 12:14 PM               

I will come back to my original statement -- if you are looking to run 3:50 -- DO NOT USE THE PACES THAT YOU HAVE LISTED!!!

You might want to try using paces based on a 3:45 marathon and see what you can do when race day shows up:

So, that would be:

Recovery 10:06 to 10:36
Long 9:06 to 10:06
Easy 9:06 to 9:36
Tempo 7:49 to 8:09
5K 7:26
10K 7:42
Marathon 8:36
800's 3:31.7 to 3:41.6
1000's 4:31.2 to 4:41.7

Assuming that your base is sufficient to handle the mileage, I would bet that your body could handle the workload at these paces.

With that being said, you also have to look at yourself. Over the last 12 months, I have added a lot more intensity to my week while still upping the mileage AND have had less injuries. If I would have tried to do what I am doing now 18 months ago, I would have been on the shelf quite often. Balance your history with your desires (sometimes they compete).

As for the one key ingredient from my perspective (and I think others have addressed it) -- fast finish long runs. On one of your last 20 (22?) milers, try to do the last 5 to 10 miles @ goal marathon race pace. For me, this is what gives me the confidence in being able to go the full distance.

Remember, advice should be taken in moderation -- review what is said, take the nuggests and discard the rest.

PLEASE keep us in the loop (I know you will).

IP: Logged

posted May-15-2007 12:34 PM            

Ribs, especially, your reminders about sticking to the basics and building gradually in the long term seem very important. (BTW, I don’t race a lot; my 5K is from last summer when I did a couple; one @ 6:53, one on a rough course @ 6:58. This year I’ve only done a one-mile road race (6:04) and an 8K (7:16) that I didn’t run full tilt because I was doing an additional 10 afterwards. I plan to do a local 10K and 5K in the next month so I’ll have some baseline number. But I’m not prepping hard for them. (BTW, since sucking up to Lou for nearly two years has failed to get me any free beer, I have no qualms about dissing him now. I think his plan sucks.)

other things….
---MC, I’m in pain just looking at all that quality work in your schedule. Ouch. But I hear you on those other points.
---Canfit, I told you we were in the same ballpark. And you ask some good questions.
---One big variable here is the definition of doing “well.” Running is one of a number of things going on in my life—not the least of which is a huge house renovation for which I need to find time and lots of community involvement, which is also time-consuming. The result is that I’m not, and probably will never, live up to my potential as a runner. I’m fine with that. I’m just having fun doing it and enjoying the health benefits along the way. On the other hand, I do like improving a little at a time (while I still can!). The result is finding a balance between accommodating my life and finding something to keep up my interest and motivation, which is what planning for a race does. I always say that most people train for a race, I sign up for a race to keep myself motivated for the training. I guess I’m not really a competitive guy.
---I’m also no glutton for punishment and will gladly reduce the quality work—especially intervals—in favor of easy miles. I’d rather get to the finish line healthy—even if it means being a little slower—than get a DNS due to injury.
---PACE. Interesting, hermosaboy. Easy runs up to 9:36! Wow, that’s a near crawl. I just checked my log; my “easy” average pace has been in the 8:40s all year; (limited) tempos @ 7:20-7:25; “long” (10+) runs 8:50s. Which raises the issue of MP. A pace of around 8:50 translates, yup, into a 3:51 marathon. So my easy and goal MP paces are essentially the same. Dare I think about a faster MP pace? That seems overly ambitious right now. Heck, if I could actually run a 3:50 that would be a huge 15-minute PR. But running the easy, tempo, and long paces that hermosaboy suggests seems really slow to me. What to do?
--INJURY: It’s interesting, I don’t think of myself as injury-prone. This ITB issue is actually the first time I’ve had a “real” running injury—and it seems to be improving steadily. I chalk it up to running the April 1st marathon undertrained (flu and weather), which is one reason why I vowed to be better prepared this time out, including more emphasis on supplemental core work.
--Sally, maybe some of this could be linked to my idea about a “guide to plans.” Hmmmm….

IP: Logged

posted May-15-2007 12:50 PM            

As I've said before, when racing, one needs to know what kind of training your body likes and can stand and how much recovery is needed. I would be cautious about any plan that involves 3 hard days and I've said this to you before.

I also agree that the bulk of marathon training is done with miles in total and long runs specifically. Intensity should come by tempo runs and MP specific training. There are countless ways to set up a program. Intervals of 5K RP are of very little utility unless you have the genes of Emil Z...

I have come to like the terms: recovery, easy and tempo. These are all you need for marathoning. Easy should be comfortable and 'easy'. Recovery is slower and as slow as needed-almost always untimed for me lately. I often push too hard and using my HR monitor helped slow me down, and now I don't need it. Tempo depends on the time of the run. If it's for 20 minutes, it should be a pretty darn hard-sustained effort. If it is for 40 minutes, then it should be moderately hard. This often seems to be a bit faster than goal MP for me.

So, to end this blog, let me say good luck!

-Consider working the mileage up to whatever you can hold safely for several months. Make most of it easy running.

-Do some tempo work. Vary the distance from 2-3 miles in the beginning to 10-12 miles later in the training program. I like to embed these in a 8-10 miler early on or a 15-16 miler later. This is sometimes called a 'strength' or 'stamina' run. This is the third key to marathoning-behind mileage and LR's. These can be done mid week and satisfy the need for rest/recovery and Pfitz's midweek medLR...

-Build the LR to 2-21/2 hours during the first couple of months- and alternate each week with an easy run for 60-90 minutes. Later you will push it up to 3 hours a couple of times before the race. This should be easy/comfortable running with good form. Don't worry about trying to 'hit' a specific pace, just go easy. (A LR of 19 miles at 9:30 pace + about 3 hrs). If you can keep your pace at 8:45-9:00, you will do amazingly better than you think. I would not hold a goal number, just do the training and let your body tell you how much you've improved on race day.

-Take enough rest. Take extra days if needed. Anticipate some days when you feel badly but try to do the mileage if you can, but never be afraid to take a day off.

-Do some strides once or twice a week. This helps with turnover and form. It's the best form of speedwork for marathoning, IMO.

-Your 1/2M is the best predictor for a marathon. A 10K time is pretty good. 5K's and one mile races are useless. Your 1:42 half marathon equates to ~3:35 marathon, if equally trained. The problem is that to get to that point in training usually takes years, not months. Some people do surprise, though.

sub4...ha. Too easy.

Dale

[This message has been edited by dtoce (edited May-15-2007).]

IP: Logged

posted May-15-2007 12:54 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tramps:

---PACE. Interesting, hermosaboy. Easy runs up to 9:36! Wow, that’s a near crawl. I just checked my log; my “easy” average pace has been in the 8:40s all year; (limited) tempos @ 7:20-7:25; “long” (10+) runs 8:50s. Which raises the issue of MP. A pace of around 8:50 translates, yup, into a 3:51 marathon. So my easy and goal MP paces are essentially the same. Dare I think about a faster MP pace? That seems overly ambitious right now. Heck, if I could actually run a 3:50 that would be a huge 15-minute PR. But running the easy, tempo, and long paces that hermosaboy suggests seems really slow to me. What to do?

Hmmmm….

---

Remember, these are training paces based on a 3:45 marathon time. Easy runs should be EASYPEASY!!!

If you are throwing in good quality in tempo/pace runs and your long run, I think that the paces would be appropriate. You won't see the benefits of a quality workout for 10 days to 2 weeks AFTER you do it. This also assumes that you allow adequate recovery/rebuilding to occur.

Are you going to run your ABSOLUTE best marathon time? Probably not... But remember, baby steps. I got 3 strikes before I hit my BQ time (in my fifth marathon) and I failed in my first attempt at a big improvement.

What I would suggest is starting off at the easier paces listed above in what ever plan you decide to use. When you get to your first stepback week, take an inventory and see how you are feeling. It is a continual feedback process (kind of like the whole marathon...).

Again, just my $0.02.

IP: Logged

posted May-15-2007 01:27 PM               

tramps, since no one has asked yet i'll be the first: do you have a heart rate monitor? it would be interesting to check, but that comment about easy pace being your target marathon pace seems to suggest that you're running too hard on your easy days. ok, it's hot here now at lunch, but i'm running 9-9:30 min/mile on my easy days in the heat. as hermosa says, easy should be really easy; my test is that i usually feel better after running (and a shower) than i felt before running... not tired at all, actually more energized.

you don't need a heart rate monitor, but you can just take your pulse the old fashioned way; i'm near 70% max (65% heart rate reserve) on easy runs. or, the talk test is pretty good. actually on an easy run i can almost whistle a tune while running, or i can almost breath through my nose (i start to have trouble after a minute or so)... you might try those tests too. easy really does mean easy.

[This message has been edited by mcsolar99 (edited May-15-2007).]

IP: Logged

posted May-15-2007 01:30 PM            

Just thought I would chime in here too. I don't necessarily see the need for the intervals at the beginning of the program. You already have tempo runs in there. If you wish to do intervals and tempo runs during the same week (and I don't think this is necessary), I would do it later in the schedule. Since it doesn't seem like you want to race the marathon to your greatest potential, I think you should concentrate on tempo runs and long runs.

The mileage debate is here is classic. It all depends on the individual. I used to average in the 60's, but never considered myself to run a great marathon. No matter what my strategy (pacewise), I would always slow the last 6 miles. For me, I think I needed more miles (either that, or I was/am not cut out to run marathons). DW, on the other hand, only averaged in the upper 40's - low 50's. Yet she was a great marathoner (3:07 PR). Probably the only person I know whose prediction calculator time for the 1/2 and marathon were much faster than 5K or 10K. She is also somewhat injury-prone, so she had to keep her mileage down.

You have to decide what is best for you, and know your strengths and weaknesses. Are you more of a speedster (like I was), or better at distance/endurance (like DW).

Since you have time constraints, I would keep the mileage where it is. Concentrate on tempo runs, and add some fast finish long runs at MP. Add in a few intervals in the last 6-8 weeks. Move the tempo runs at the beginning of the schedule to Tue, omit the intervals, and move your midweek longer run to Thur. Also, I would increase the distance of this run at a quicker pace, rather than keeping the same for several weeks in a row (7,8,8,5,8,9,9,5...).

Hopefully this is helpful. As far as your goal, I believe you should be able to go much faster than sub-4. I think 3:40-3:45 should be well within your reach.

------------------
My Profile

posted May-15-2007 01:43 PM            

Sincerely, though, thanks for your comments. My head is spinning so like Tramps, I'm planning on printing out this stuff so I can digest it a little bit better. There's a lot here. I'm sure I'll have many more questions down the road. Bear with me/us.
PJ

IP: Logged

posted May-15-2007 02:15 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by mcsolar99:

tramps, since no one has asked yet i'll be the first: do you have a heart rate monitor? it would be interesting to check, but that comment about easy pace being your target marathon pace seems to suggest that you're running too hard on your easy days.

you don't need a heart rate monitor, but you can just take your pulse the old fashioned way; i'm near 70% max (65% heart rate reserve) on easy runs. or, the talk test is pretty good. actually on an easy run i can almost whistle a tune while running, or i can almost breath through my nose (i start to have trouble after a minute or so)... you might try those tests too. easy really does mean easy.
[This message has been edited by mcsolar99 (edited May-15-2007).]

---

Yeah, I've got a HRM. I use David Hays' Excel sheet for my log so it's got the built in Karvonen HRR formulas. My RHR is now 44 (down from 48 last year) and the (205- 1/2 age) formula puts my max at 183, which is what I use in the Excel formula. (However, the highest I've ever recorded my HR is 176--though that may be soft.)

Anyway, using those numbers, my easy runs--eyeballing my log for the last few weeks--range from a 8:31 (HRR 72%, Avg 144) to 9:00 (HRR 62%, Avg 130). Subjectively, I'm nearly always more energized after an easy run...except for those occasional carpy runs, of course.

FWIW, my Sunday 11-miler (mostly flat route) clocked in at 8:43 pace (69%, 140).

[This message has been edited by Tramps (edited May-15-2007).]

IP: Logged

posted May-15-2007 06:35 PM               

For a sub-4 marathon, I believe that putting in the miles is important, but it can’t all be done in an 18 wk program. The premise of these programs is that you already have the leg work done and have a solid base to work from. You hear lots of people saying, I get hurt when I run over xx miles/wk when what they are really saying is…when I jump from 25 MPW to 70 MPW I breakdown and don’t know why. The body adapts and what once had a negative effect may not be true today; smart mileage build-up. I understand personal preference and life outside of running (nawwww…can’t be true), but over time you can safely increase your base miles, build up, recover, repeat.

I see that plan short changing you in 2 areas. First are the tempo runs. You are maxing out at an 8 mile run w/6 at tempo. I think you need to increase that by a few miles so that you are running 10-12 miles w/8 at tempo; a good mid-workout. Quick word on tempo; as you increase the length of the tempo portion the overall pace can come down. In other words, if you are running a 20 minute tempo at 7:30, than run an 8 mile tempo about 7:45-7:50. It should be comfortable hard. These tempo runs will be better stimulus for increasing your LT and holding off the dreaded wall.

While track workouts are great (especially when you are finished) you need about 15-20 minutes per session in the zone to get the benefit of the workout. From the plan, I suspect that you are short changing yourself and that you would be better served to skip the track, especially since your shorter races don’t correspond well to your marathon. Get in good quality tempo runs and long runs w/MP and fast finishes. If you do keep track sessions, I would suggest running 6-8 1K or 5-7 1200’s. Last word on track wo. Remember you don’t have to run them all out; you just need to be in the right heart rate zone. Like ribs mentioned, there is no need to race them at 5K pace, 5K + 10-20 sec would be fine.

The second area I would address is the mid week med-long run (MLR) and long run. First, I think for the marathon, the MLR are important especially in the last few weeks where you’ll run a few miles at MP as the final prep for the big event. These runs also help build the musculo-skeletal system and get the body use to the higher mileage. Start off w/7 miles med week and build to 10-12. These would be a good place to get in tempo miles as mentioned above.

Lastly the long run; the backbone of the program. With your plan I don’t have any issues with quantity of long runs, just want to stress the importance of pacing on them. Start off approximately 20% slower than MP and work to approximately 10% slower. In the last 6 weeks, this is a good time to run the later portions at MP(1 to 1.5 hrs) with a fast finish, kicking to 10K or faster at the end. I would mix these up where every other LR has some form of speed element in it. But these have to be managed so the following weeks workouts aren’t compromised.

As for heart rate monitors. If you saw 176 then go by 176 and not some math formula. Remember your heart is a muscle and as it gets used it gets more efficient at moving blood so it is not uncommon for the max HR to come down as fitness increases.

Good luck

Mike

------------------
The legs feed the wolf

IP: Logged

posted May-15-2007 07:37 PM            

IP: Logged

posted May-15-2007 10:57 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Canfit:

4) I started (again too late) to build in a mid-week med-long run of 10-11 miles on the advice of people here. I really like that concept especially when it is sandwiched between a tempo run and another 'harder' workout. I ran some of the 10-11 at MP or better in the middle.

---

Sorry PJ, but I can't let this one slip by. As I stated earlier and others emphasized as well, I am a great believer in a mid-week mLR (I prefer 12-16 miles) BUT please make this a QUALITY workout - i.e. put the Tempo or fast-finish or hills or MP miles IN THIS Workout, surrounded by easy days. This will do wonders for your stamina and endurance. I think putting it between quality workouts is an invitation to injury.

Ribs made a point about not needing two rest days. I would agree. What I did was add an easy 5-6 miles as a warmup on my cross-train days. (My weekly mileage is much higher than yours, you could do 3-4 miles.) Then did my X-T time on the elliptical, machines, ball, stretches, etc.

One closing point - unlike those who focus on 5Ks and can run 15 in a season, most marathoners trying for 'fast' times only get one or two shots a year - so be sure to use the long runs as race practice in any way you can - clothing, course terrain, fueling, hydration - not always possible, but try.

Great thread. My thanks to all who have contributed to it.

Skip

IP: Logged

posted May-16-2007 11:20 AM            

One the one hand, Dale mentions that I should not try to hit a specific pace, just run easy. On the other hand, Nighthawk (and others) mention very specific paces (“start off approximately 20% slower and work to approximately 10% slower [than MP]”) and note the value to be had from running some of the miles at MP and even having a “fast finish” (10K pace).

Reading between the lines, I’m guessing that early in the training cycle LR should be done slowly but later in the cycle MP miles and fast finish efforts should be added. Is that correct?

Also:
--Is there some rule of thumb for how many of the LR miles should be MP? (I noticed Glover mentions limiting it to the last 3-5 miles, but I have the impression some of you do much more.)
--How long of a “fast finish” are we talking about? The final mile? Something else?
--Does all of this apply to the medium-long runs to be done on alternating weeks (in place of a long run)? Or just the actual long runs (18+)?

Thanks again for your generous help.

IP: Logged

posted May-16-2007 11:33 AM            

As to my current training program, which is more suited to middle distance racing, I do two long runs a week (long and medium long, or 15 and 10 in my case). But each of these long runs has some quality miles embedded in them. This way, even though I do only 2 big workouts a week, I achieve two goals: build endurance by running long, and build stamina by running long and hard. (See my workout of today posted on the 50+. Today was my medium long workout. Note the slow times for the oneK's.)

I believe your summary in your last post captures the thinking. Others will have approaches different from mine but I am sure the point will be the same. One thing that everyone will concur about and that is that a mild application of speed during these long runs is just that. You don't try to throw in a 7 minute mile or faster toward the end of a 20-miler. MP is ideal. Spareribs

IP: Logged

posted May-16-2007 12:52 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tramps:
But one thing that is a bit confusing involves pacing of long runs.

One the one hand, Dale mentions that I should not try to hit a specific pace, just run easy. On the other hand, Nighthawk (and others) mention very specific paces (“start off approximately 20% slower and work to approximately 10% slower [than MP]”) and note the value to be had from running some of the miles at MP and even having a “fast finish” (10K pace).

Reading between the lines, I’m guessing that early in the training cycle LR should be done slowly but later in the cycle MP miles and fast finish efforts should be added. Is that correct?

Also:
--Is there some rule of thumb for how many of the LR miles should be MP? (I noticed Glover mentions limiting it to the last 3-5 miles, but I have the impression some of you do much more.)
--How long of a “fast finish” are we talking about? The final mile? Something else?
--Does all of this apply to the medium-long runs to be done on alternating weeks (in place of a long run)? Or just the actual long runs (18+)?

Thanks again for your generous help.

---

oh, how far you've come already! It makes me smile to see another one added to the list of 'getting it'...

I always apply the rule of mileage/distance first, then speed/intensity. The same is true for LR's. Work up the distance then add intensity. Intensity to the LR is first just doing the distance. Then it is done with some pace running in the middle. Lastly, a fast fnish or progression run is a very strong stimulus. And should only be attempted if the training cycle is going well and you feel you can do it...Traditionally the 'fast finish ' run is the last 2-5 miles of the LR. There were articles in RW after KK did it a bunch of times at very fast paces.

There are lots of ways to train. You should incorporate what works for you. Take notes and use types of workouts that go well. 'Ribs has made some nice comments. There are many fine 'programs' offered with specific comments on training paces within this thread.

I like to try to alternate LR's that are easy pace with medLR's early on in marathon training. Later on, I did LR's two weeks in a row, then did a medLR. The intensity of the LR was always easy first, then the second week I did some MP or fast finish or whatever. This was the time to practice fluids/gels etc. Get used to the weather/heat. Learn to drink on the run. LR's wiped me out for 2-4 days usually and I could never do hard tempo without enough rest. You need to learn how much time you need to recover from LR's. Take notes. Spread the information regarding what has/hasn't worked for you so others can benefit.

This is very exciting-from a 'sitting on the couch' point of view...

Dale

[This message has been edited by dtoce (edited May-16-2007).]

IP: Logged

posted May-16-2007 01:43 PM            

Here is my very brief summary of the most important points to consider when looking at the Proposed Plan vs. What Tramps really should do:
1) The proposed plans have way too many interval workouts. They will wear you down with all of the mileage increases that this plan has. In my opinion, you already have pretty good speed.
2) The listed paces for long runs are way too fast. From the HR and training run info you provided, your Long run should be ~9:20-9:30/mile and about 130-135 avg HR.
3) There is HUGH value in fast-finish long runs. Not every long run, but maybe every other week think about finishing the last 25-33% of your long run with marathon pace or slighly faster (~8:45/mile) after running the first part at what Hermosa calls "EASYPEASY" pace. This really teaches you what it feels like to hold onto pace after your legs are pretty tired.

Tramps, I really think if you incorporate some of these fast-finish long runs into your training plan, you will smash your marathon PR this fall.
Best of luck to you on your training!
John

------------------
"Run Smart, Run Strong"
My Profile

IP: Logged

posted May-17-2007 08:54 AM            

IP: Logged

posted May-20-2007 09:48 AM            

I’m sure there’ll be tweaking as I go along, but this is what I’ve done:
1. Dumped intervals entirely (though I may put a few back in late in the cycle if the spirit moves me) in favor of more easy miles.
2. Increased mileage by an average of 5 miles a week (a 12% increase overall). Starts at 40 mpw peaks at 60, with an average of 45 mpw overall. (Last year I ran Richmond with an avg of 32 mpw, peaking at 45 mpw)
3. Moved my weekend long run to Saturday instead of Sunday, allowing me to run long after having run the day before. (I’m not ready to make that Friday run a tempo run, though; that seems too stressful to me.) This will also give me Sunday as a back-up if weather is too bad. I kept my long run schedule about the same but will be sure to include MP miles and maybe even a 10K fast finish later in the cycle. I decided to stick to a ML every other week because, as I looked back at my log, I realized I had troubles whenever I did long runs two weeks in a row. Better safe than sorry.
4. As my second quality day, I’m using a mid-week (Tuesday) 7-13 mile run that includes 3-9 tempo miles (the pace of which will be adjusted as tempo mileage increases).
5. Thursdays are usually 10-mile easy runs (I have a nice route with hills). Mondays and Fridays are usually 5-7 mile easy days. (I’ll have to figure out regularly incorporating strides or fartleks into some of these.)
6. Maintained my two non-running days to help ensure the core work gets done and I’m resting properly from this increase in mileage. Wednesday is also available for “make-up” runs due to weather, excessive drinking (kidding!), etc. If the Thursday ML mileage gets too intense, I’m open to moving some of the miles to what is currently a non-running Wednesday (or adding some to Monday) but I’d rather not.
7. Kept “races” as is. Remember the 20-miler is billed as a “training run race” (for both Marine Corps and Richmond) and I will run it as such. The two 5Ks will also be more like tempo pace. I will try to run well for the 10-miler in week 12 and the ½ in week 8.
8. I kept step-back weeks about every 4th week with roughly a 25% reduction in mileage and all easy running for a good rest.

This will be a challenge for me—but hopefully doable. I consider this plan a guideline and will not hesitate to make cuts if I feel it’s too much for me—either healthwise or in terms of other commitments. But if I can safely complete, say, 90% of this plan, it would be a huge improvement over my training for Richmond last year.

I, of course, welcome further critique.
Thanks again for everyone's help.

IP: Logged

posted May-20-2007 12:57 PM            

The only thing I would say is that you should let the taper be a stronger taper...ie less hard. It's ok to have lots of MP in there but little bouts of it once or twice, not medLR's with 7 or 9 miles at MP. I'd bet even Beck would tell you to back off that a bit, and he's the strongest believer in MP training that I know.

Now do the work and see the breakthrough.

IP: Logged

posted May-20-2007 01:51 PM               

your plan looks much better. i'd agree with dtoce on the taper, especially that 12mi with 10MP one week out should go to 12mi ez, or maybe 3MP... i think the mileage is ok, but save those 10MP for race day a week later.

ultra picky geek would also like to point out that 28 aug tempo so soon after your 10mi race seems hard. that would be the perfect week to experiment with 3 mi tempo on friday!

have fun tramps... it's a great plan; stick to it as much as you can, be flexible when you have to be, and smile a lot!

[This message has been edited by mcsolar99 (edited May-20-2007).]

IP: Logged

posted May-20-2007 04:01 PM            

It always amazes me how silly the words "listen to your body" tend to be, since hardly anyone translates that phrase into reasonable training behavior.

Your original question, followed by thoughtful analysis and then redrafting your plan with the idea of making it flexible, is such a good example of learning and focus that I hope this entire thread gets saved for others who ask this kind of question and get random feedback.

What a great thing you did here Tramps, and as Dale said, we are all eager to applaud your success as you execute it. Best wishes, Spareribs

IP: Logged

posted May-20-2007 04:35 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tramps:
... I consider this plan a guideline and will not hesitate to make cuts if I feel it’s too much for me—either healthwise or in terms of other commitments. ..

---

Too many people get so locked into a training plan, they lose sight of the purpose of the workouts and how they all fit together. This leads to dissatifaction and stress and worse, injury. It IS a guideline. Life is going to get in the way at times and I am delighted to see and hear you have built your plan in such a way as to allow/plan for fall-back days, carpy weather, etc. Keep in mind the flexibility can go both ways - within reasonable limits you can occasionally step-up a week with a little longer or harder run than scheduled (or even substitute in some intervals for mc!). And NEVER EVER forget, there will be no PR if you don't get to the starting line. Wishing you all the best in this Tramps.

Skip

IP: Logged

posted May-20-2007 04:53 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by mcsolar99:

ultra picky geek would also like to point out that 28 aug tempo so soon after your 10mi race seems hard. that would be the perfect week to experiment with 3 mi tempo on friday!

have fun tramps... it's a great plan; stick to it as much as you can, be flexible when you have to be, and smile a lot!

[This message has been edited by mcsolar99 (edited May-20-2007).]

---

Intervals can be 'tempo' intervals-like 4 miles done as 6x1200M at 10K-1/2MP...

and I'd like to say also (since we're bboth ultra picky) that any week you have a race, you should consider running all easy until you feel you can go faster. Don't commit to a hard day again until your legs come back to you. Those are bonus hard days if you've had any race within a week.

Adjustments and consistency are two keys to success.

IP: Logged

posted May-22-2007 09:50 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by FlyingFinn:

“There is no hope of making a runner out of a man who cannot make his own training programme.”—Paavo Nurmi

---

Here's my version: “There is no hope of making a runner out of a man who cannot make his own training programme--unless he has Boomer friends to bail him out."

Anyway, thanks again for the supportive words and last minute tweaking.
--stronger taper. Check.
--shorter T after 10-mile race (and easy running after races in general). Check.
--smile a lot. Check.

Onward.

[This message has been edited by Tramps (edited May-22-2007).]

IP: Logged